Trading in the BoWS room (…again ugghhh)

Last week I received an email from the BullsOnWallStreet room showing how well Kunal had done ($27k) in the month of December. I am familiar with the guys there for a few years now from twitter and having dropped in on the chatroom a few times. Well I couldnt pass it up and joined again.

Wow, just the way I remember it, what a roller coaster! πŸ™‚ Unfortunately for me a down week though Kunal according to MaryBeth’s posting banked $12k that week(1/6-1/10). I will give my thoughts on what I feel may be going on over there and if these results are possible for chat room members. Here are some things I have noticed and screen captured to date.

Pros:
-) the guys are very active in the markets*. I would say from everything you will read on their site and when interacting with them they are an energetic, nice group of people. He answers most questions in chat.
-) a video** link is provided daily, though it tends to halt numerous times thruout the day.
-) the emails, education materiel provided by them will help any one new or who is struggling.
-) nightly watch-lists from one of Sayed, MaryBeth or Kunal.
-) Szaman(Sayed) and Fuinhaz, 2 other traders who to my knowledge are there almost everyday. Sayed is employed by BoWS as is MaryBeth. I would say these guys when they call out a trade entry, it is a fairly safe play, lower volatility trade relative to trades Kunal will take. Though Fuinhaz will have at times imo some very wide stops on small position sizes. Fuinhaz is part of the SharePlanner subscription service with Ryan Mallory. Szaman use to blog alot under NYCtrader and is how I found out about BoWS 2+ years ago.
-) BoWS offer you a chance to work for them (Clique hedge fund) though it will cost you from my understanding about 10% of your initial trading capital fee. Ex: if you pay them $2500, take the Level 1 course (3 videos) and pass it then Kunal who runs the fund will allocate $25k for you to trade with. You receive 99% of your profit until you get up to a certain point, then their cut increases. You work remotely and they will of course watch over your trading. No margin is given and only 20% overnight buying power. For the level 5 course it costs $15,000 and allows you to trade w/a buying power of $150k.
-) the way Kunal travels around and trades from Hollywood, Florida, Costa Rica, etc and enjoying his life would make anyone envious at least it does me πŸ™‚
-) I tried to verify several days of chat room logs with Kunal’s trades posted in the chat room and his posted performance #s and everything seems to be on the up-up***.

Cons:
-) Kunal always enters the trade before he calls it out in chat. This from Kunal’s perspective may not be a con. Though unless the stock pullsback(pb) or is moving very slowly you will not get his entry. This may not seem like a big deal but he tends to wait for b/o trades so you are always behind the proverbial 8-ball. Due to the liquidity you are most of the time deciding if you chasing****. Since I am also running the “video” chat I hear him call out the trade prior to posting it in the chat room and I try to enter right behind him. Out of 40plus trades it is rare for me to ever get his entry unless there is a pb after he calls it out. Today when I checked the T&S window he had entered at a price which was a minimum of 1+minutes before the call out in the video link, long before it is posted in chat.
-) Kunal somehow is shorting stocks that noone else is able to short. In the chat even his own fund Clique fund didnt have shares but he said he entered it. I tried 3 brokers with no luck and others also asked him how. This occurred a few times and resulted in some really big wins for him about $3k plus in 1 day.
-) Kunal never calls out his stop when he enters making it difficult on members to position size according to risk and volatility.
-) You get the feeling Kunal may be ADD. He appears, almost daily, to forget an entry until someone asks about it from chat like “where are we getting out” or “where is the stop”. Then he responds, to me this should have been very clear from the moment the trade is taken on or moments later.
-) The other thing that really bothered me is his almost “cowboy” style of trading at times. For instance if he takes a loss on a early trade it is not unexpected for him to re-enter a few minutes later with 2x the original share size and once again no mention of where his stopLoss will be. It is almost like he is trying to make up for his prior loss. This happened a few days ago in $galt he was short 1k shares exited with a loss, then re-entered a few moments later w/2k shares, $galt broke thru some resistance and Kunal was down now $1200 in this one trade, with no word on what he was thinking or where his stop was. This isnt how they talk about trading in their educational materail. Remember they say he is trading from a 40k account.
-) It is not uncommon for his exits to be at a pivot point and you hear it after the pivot is visible on the chart. He is lucky? πŸ™‚

Overall I would say the chatroom service is a nice place for beginners to get a feel for trading. I would strongly suggest though you only paper trade in it. The room is way to unstructured for me to trade real money in, though I have twice for several weeks at a time. Kunals lack of calling out stops and at times seemly to forget about a trade is worrisome when there are real $$ on the line.

You never see Kunal take trades (**read below) and you strongly get the suspicion due to the Cons mentioned above perhaps he is just paper trading. With at least $15k+ per MONTH coming from subscriptions plus his bootcamp money (which he said one day is his biggest money maker) he isnt trading a real account. Looking into the performance logs posted onsite for 2013 plus the 1st week Jan 2014, it shows he booked $275,000!!?? so why is he is hollering one day at his webDeveloper to get the up coming bootCamp links on the site? So he makes more than $275,000 in bootcamp fees? I dont believe it. It would also explain why he always gets shares to short. Considering how open he appears to be about other stuff you really have to wonder why no screen of him trading.

*Over the last 4 trading days I have noticed Kunal has stopped trading by noon-ish. He is still around but not calling out trades. He has a trading coach and perhaps this appears to be something he is working on. So in the afternoon it becomes something of a free for all in chat of “look at this” stocks.
** due to the fact “video” chat is actually just a video of Kunal’s side profile (no view of his trading screen) you just hear him talking about making sandwichs, who forgot to take out the trash, who came in late, who drank too much the night before, berating the guy for not getting the bootCamp links on the site, girls…lots of bachelor stuff while in the middle of trading.
*** I tend to believe from all the evidence I have seen, viewed and hear that Kunal is paper trading and explains why he says his bootcamp is his primary source of income and explains almost all of the Cons.

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11 Responses to Trading in the BoWS room (…again ugghhh)

  1. jdreven@charter.net says:

    I agree with everything in your write up. I too believe he is paper trading and promoting the win rate that does not exist.

    • Rob says:

      It is a good “scam” with all the traveling around and the outrageous profits. I filed a complaint asking if they could investigate the BoWS room so we will see..

  2. Do you think that is safe to trade with clique fund? or there are other things that we should be aware of.

  3. Ephraim says:

    The Clique Fund benefits those who want to get around the pattern day trading rule without having to have $25k or more in your account. They’ll give you capital to trade with, but of course the risk is still all yours. If you do have over $25k, you can compare the fee and commission structure of Clique Fund to that of a competitively priced discount broker (IB, Speedtrader, or Centerpoint) and, depending on how many trades and what position sizes you habitually trade you may find your broker works out to be cheaper.

    • Rob says:

      I have not checked in on them lately but I think in order as you say “…get capital to trade with” dont you still have to in essence deposit money via their trading class(s)? I believe the only issue with Clique was due to their small size they do not acquire a significant (or any at all) # of shares of different equities to be shorted. The pricing on the commissions was never something I heard mentioned.

      I like the idea behind Clique and what BoWs offers via their trading classes.

  4. E says:

    Their commissions are as cheap as they come on a “per share” basis. I think it’s around $.0027 per share. I learned that there’s also a monthly fee of $320/month on top of that, so it suddenly doesn’t sound so cheap anymore. You are required to put up $2500 to start in the fund. If you get to a drawdown of $2000, you get kicked out of the fund. It sounds like a great way for a confident and consistent trader that doesnt have too much capital to get started. If you’re not at that level, it sounds expensive and a actually rather risky. You could compare this with the other ways around the PDT rule that are out there. If the PDT rule is not an issue for you, or your trading is not quite there yet, I think you would be better-served elsewhere.

  5. John says:

    i think he has the shares to short because hes hooked up with Haim Bodek and he is a genius in getting orders to the front of the line

  6. Meme says:

    Not impressed with this fund. The platform fee is $11 per day and that includes Sat & Sun when the markets aren’t even open….. What!!!??? That’s correct. $330 / month. The per share cost is low .0026 x 2 (1 buy / 1 sell = .0054) plus ECN fees. The problem is the restrictions on how many shares you can trade. I understand the restriction on amount of capital as the firm has to protect its assets until you can prove yourself. Then they will release more capital to you. But, when they restrict you to just 100 shares per ticker how in the hell are you going to make any money on lower priced stocks. The lower priced stocks are what FOUS trades and he promotes this fund to his members. Plus, they mis-stated the amount of shares and capital I would have access to before I signed up.

    The Apptrade system freezes up several times throughout the trading day. There was also a day when Stop Orders would not work system wide. I found that out the hard way. Placed a phone call and then an email was sent out to everyone alerting them of the issue….. really? A little late. Two days later I placed Buy Limit orders on GPRO, CYBR, EYES and FEYE. All 4 orders were “rejected”. Placed a call and the support team couldn’t figure out what was going on. Of course all 4 of those trades went in my favor as I sat and stared at the screen on the phone with support. I’m switching to Cy Group. The $5K to join is even refundable at any time with Cy Group. (provided you still have $5K minimum in your account) Plus, they’ve been around much longer.

    The fees are a bit higher, but they start you out with $100K and no share restrictions. Plus their short list is more expansive and they have great self controlled protective stops you can preset. You can preset that if you’re up say $300 on a trade, the system will automatically stop you out if it retraces 50% ($150 profit) You can also set to sell everything at EOD so you don’t hold overnight. But, you can hold up to $20K overnight if you choose. Clique Fund is only $5K o/n holds.

  7. djomega says:

    100 PERCENT CORRECT CLIQUE IS NOT A PLACE FOR NEW TRADERS IN MY OPINION.
    CONS;
    THE RESTRICTIONS ALONE ON YOUR SHARE SIZING AND AMOUNT OF TRADES(ONLY TWO POSITIONS AT A TIME)AND THE DAILY FEES WILL CRIPPLE YOUR ACCOUNT IN A VERY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME IF YOU ARE NOT A CONSISTENT PROFITABLE TRADER.I WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO JOIN CLIQUE AND THEY CHANGED EVERYTHING ON ME FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD ID BE ABLE TO DO AS FAR AS AMOUNT ALLOCATED TO ME TO SHARE SIZE AND FEES.THERE WERE NO PLATFORM FEES WHEN I STARTED.THEY ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE RULES ON YOU AT ANYTIME SO BE AWARE OF THAT.AND YES YOU DO PAY 22 DOLLARS OVER THE WEEKEND WHEN MARKET IS CLOSED.THE 11 DOLLAR A DAY FEE WHICH WAS ADDED ON AFTERWORDS I FEEL WAS A REAL LOW BLOW.IF YOU ONLY MAKE 11 ON THE DAY YOU WILL STILL END UP NEGATIVE BECAUSE OF COMMISSION FEES AND ECN FEES.AND IF YOU DON’T TRADE AT ALL U STILL GET CHARGED 340 A MONTH.WICH GETS DEDUCTED FROM YOUR INITIAL MONEY U USED TO JOIN.THEY DO GIVE YOU THE OPTION FOR 50 A MONTH TO FREEZE YOUR ACCOUNT MEANING NO TRADES FOR A FULL MONTH.WICH IS GOOD IF YOU PLAN ON NOT TRADING.ALSO THERE IS NO MONEY BACK.MEANING IF U DECIDE ITS NOT RIGHT FOR YOU UR NOT GETTING REIMBURSED.THE SOFTWARE IS GLITCH Y AT TIMES LIKE SAID IN PREVIOUS POSTS.THEYRE WERE ALSO CHANGES ON THE SOFTWARE U CAN NO LONGER USE THE ALL OR NOTHING ORDER SO U WILL RECEIVE PARTIAL FILLS AT TIMES WICH I REALLY HATE BEYOND ANYTHING.

    PROS;
    GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE FROM GEOFF.
    PER SHARE RATES .0027 PER SHARE PLUS ECN FEES
    YOU GET AROUND THE PDT RULE.
    YOU CAN SHORT ALMOST ANYTHING OVER THERE BUT COMES WITH EXTRA PER SHARE PRICING ON CERTAIN STOCKS
    YOUR 11 DAILY FEE IS WAIVED IF YOU MAKE OVER 100 A DAY AND NOTIFY THEM NO MORE TRADING FOR YOU BEFORE 3PM
    OSCAR IN CHAT GIVES ENTRIES AND EXITS BEFORE HE TRADES
    CHAT ROOM INCLUDED ONCE YOU JOIN

  8. noah1973 says:

    nice article but I just do not understand why someone would risk their own money blindly following someone else. I am a member of the bows site have learned some new things and have entered many trades at the exact same time or just before Kunal has. I set my own exit strategies etc. just sayin πŸ™‚ anyways thanks for the info on clique fund as far as the shorts go I have an etrade account and they are not the greatest for shorting main reason I am looking for other places to trade and was considering clique fund but will do more research.

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